Okolju prijazni avtomobili

AndY1

Guru
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18. sep 2007
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GM-backed Envia claims huge advance in cheaper, better batteries for 300-mile EVs

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Looking for signs that the automotive landscape may be changing sooner than most people realize? Here's one. Envia Systems, a start-up battery company that counts General Motors as a significant investor, has announced it has produced a cell with an energy density of 400 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg). It also claims they will be priced somewhere in the $125 per kilowatt-hour neighborhood. Put another way, a $20,000 car using these cells could travel 300 miles on a charge. Even if that scenario sounds a bit optimistic, color us impressed. GM must be pleased, too, since when it made its $7-million investment is also concluded a separate licensing deal to use Envia's new technology in future vehicles.

To contrast Envia's numbers with batteries in electric vehicles available today, most lithium cells fall between 100-150 Wh/kg and easily cost double to triple Envia's projected price. Only Tesla Motors – using cells from Panasonic – even comes close to these figures. Its Model S batteries should weigh in at around 240 Wh/kg and, price-wise, Tesla CEO Elon Musk is recently on record as saying he expects to see cost drop below $200 per Wh in the near future.

Envia says its breakthrough comes from pairing a "High Capacity Manganese Rich (HCMR)" cathode with a silicon-carbon nanocomposite anode. The other major battery component, the electrolyte through which the lithium ions pass, has also been altered from what is typically used and allows for a somewhat higher voltage.

Perhaps the best part of this news is the fact that Envia's numbers aren't just based on expectations from early research. In fact, the cells in question have already undergone independent testing by the Electrochemical Power Systems Department at the Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC) and are expected to be commercialized by 2015. The company will make its official announcement of the breakthrough at the ARPA-E conference today.
 

SJTV1

eV12
18. jul 2007
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Citat:
Uporabnik AndY1 pravi:
GM-backed Envia claims huge advance in cheaper, better batteries for 300-mile EVs

Citat:
Looking for signs that the automotive landscape may be changing sooner than most people realize? Here's one. Envia Systems, a start-up battery company that counts General Motors as a significant investor, has announced it has produced a cell with an energy density of 400 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg). It also claims they will be priced somewhere in the $125 per kilowatt-hour neighborhood. Put another way, a $20,000 car using these cells could travel 300 miles on a charge. Even if that scenario sounds a bit optimistic, color us impressed. GM must be pleased, too, since when it made its $7-million investment is also concluded a separate licensing deal to use Envia's new technology in future vehicles.

To contrast Envia's numbers with batteries in electric vehicles available today, most lithium cells fall between 100-150 Wh/kg and easily cost double to triple Envia's projected price. Only Tesla Motors – using cells from Panasonic – even comes close to these figures. Its Model S batteries should weigh in at around 240 Wh/kg and, price-wise, Tesla CEO Elon Musk is recently on record as saying he expects to see cost drop below $200 per Wh in the near future.

Envia says its breakthrough comes from pairing a "High Capacity Manganese Rich (HCMR)" cathode with a silicon-carbon nanocomposite anode. The other major battery component, the electrolyte through which the lithium ions pass, has also been altered from what is typically used and allows for a somewhat higher voltage.

Perhaps the best part of this news is the fact that Envia's numbers aren't just based on expectations from early research. In fact, the cells in question have already undergone independent testing by the Electrochemical Power Systems Department at the Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC) and are expected to be commercialized by 2015. The company will make its official announcement of the breakthrough at the ARPA-E conference today.

Hmmmm ... Za 300 milj realno (torej da jih lahko doseže 90% voznikov v 90% razmer) rabiš enih 100 kWh. Torej bi baterije stale 12.500 USD in tehtale 400 kg.
Not nearly good enough za mainstream uporabo. V bistvu je potrebo 1kWh/kg in kakih 25-30 USD/kW/h ...
 

AndY1

Guru
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18. sep 2007
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Čakaj, kako si prišel do tvoje računice?

Energijsko gostoto imajo 400Wh/kg. Pri 250kg = 400*250 = 100kWh - torej točno toliko, kot si rekel, da potrebuješ za 300 milj. Baterija Nissan Leaf-a tehta 250kg. Torej je to to.
 

jest5

Guru
18. avg 2007
26.867
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Ne vem, če je to že bilo, iskati se mi pa ne da
tongue-1.gif

klik
Tesa kot kaže z lahkoto postane "opeka"
bonk.gif
 

AndY1

Guru
Osebje foruma
18. sep 2007
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Sem že bral. Hja, nekaj je vzdrževanje avtomobila. Tudi če boš avto na notranje izgorevanje pustil 1 leto stati pri miru, verjetno ne boš pričakoval, da bo vžgal iz prve.

Se pa strinjam - to bi morali preprečiti. No, to bo preprečeno pri Modelu S in Modelu X.

Self discharge je pa pač self-discharge. Če pustiš skoraj prazen avto stati nekaj mesecev, se bo baterija tako izpraznila zaradi self discharge-a, da je lahko uničena - kot skoraj vsaka Li-XX baterija.
 

jest5

Guru
18. avg 2007
26.867
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Ja, samo nekaj je eno leto, drugo je pa par tednov, ozeroma lahko samo teden, če imaš skoraj prazno baterijo
bonk.gif


Sicer pa ni noben problem narediti, da se pri padcu pod xyz napetost baterija popolnoma odklopi. Bolje ponovno nastavljati postaje na radiju itd, kot pa imeti nepremično opeko. Samopraznenje baterije ni veliko, tako da zdrži par mesecev skoraj izpraznjena. Ampak pri Tesli se jim to zgleda še ni posvetilo
evil.gif
 

mobifrik99

Fizikalc
20. nov 2007
1.138
5
38
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

ko bo tak avto na voljo za normalno ceno in bodo polnilne enote na volje...potem se lahko menimo. Ne vem pa od kod ideja, da je električni avto rešitev. Kje piše, da je elektrika neusahljivi vir, še posebej v Sloveniji, kjer so itak že brez električnih avtov težave.
 
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SJTV1

eV12
18. jul 2007
20.079
1.457
113
Citat:
Uporabnik AndY1 pravi:
Čakaj, kako si prišel do tvoje računice?

Energijsko gostoto imajo 400Wh/kg. Pri 250kg = 400*250 = 100kWh - torej točno toliko, kot si rekel, da potrebuješ za 300 milj. Baterija Nissan Leaf-a tehta 250kg. Torej je to to.

Kako sem prisel do te cifre? Ja zaj... sem, kaj pa drugega. Pri masi sevda
redface-1.gif
m Problem cene ostaja (razen ce sem tudi tam zaj...)

Je pas,mda za 300 milj rabis 30 kil klasicnega goriva, tu pa 250 kil baterij. Se vedno faktor 10, kar v teh casih, ko se varcuje pri vsakem kilogramu, ni zanemarljivo.
 

AndY1

Guru
Osebje foruma
18. sep 2007
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No, je pa res, da ni samo 30kil goriva, ampak tudi menjalnik, motor, izpušni sistem, hladilni sistem, tank za gorivo, pa verjetno bi se še kaj našlo.
 

AndY1

Guru
Osebje foruma
18. sep 2007
22.223
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Citat:
Uporabnik mobifrik99 pravi:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

ko bo tak avto na voljo za normalno ceno in bodo polnilne enote na volje...potem se lahko menimo. Ne vem pa od kod ideja, da je električni avto rešitev. Kje piše, da je elektrika neusahljivi vir, še posebej v Sloveniji, kjer so itak že brez električnih avtov težave.

Spet odvisno, od kje pridobivaš vodik. Od kje se ga, po tvojem, pridobiva?
 

mobifrik99

Fizikalc
20. nov 2007
1.138
5
38
V Google vtipkaj, če ne veš...ali pa te tako vprašam. Misliš, da je težje ali dražje kot pridobivati nafto oziroma bencin?

Tudi TopGear jo je preizkusil

Topgear
 
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jest5

Guru
18. avg 2007
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Je dražje(ne pozabi, pri nafti/bencinu je večina cene marža in davki). Še bolj zajebano pa je shranjevanje
 

AndY1

Guru
Osebje foruma
18. sep 2007
22.223
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jest5, hvala za odgovor. Sem imel isto v mislih, vendar nisem sam hotel dati odgovora, ampak sem hotel, da mi sam razloži, zakaj naj bi bil vodik cenejši, ker ni bilo na meni, da zagovarjam/ovržem njegovo trditev, ampak je bila trditev njegova in naj jo sam argumentira.

mobifrik, tisto moje vprašanje je bilo retorično, ne da bi jaz ne vedel.
 
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